Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Misc topics

Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby dyn » Mon Apr 15, 2013 21:35 UTC


Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?



Very good question i think. Posting it in case we use this later for any discussion.
User avatar
dyn
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:50 UTC
Favorite map: q3dm8
Server: FFA
Website: https://vogonhq.com

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby VAT » Tue Apr 16, 2013 09:14 UTC

before creating a moral Society it must be clear what kind of moral comes into being.
and only then the question what is needful to keep the new creation alive.
religion in this case seems to be last-ranked...
User avatar
VAT
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 18:19 UTC
Server: FFA

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby dyn » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:02 UTC

Yes, you have a point. I think religions are in a crisis, it is not only attacks against them, but when some religion is successful only because of sword and censorship, then it is normal it loses its power when people get more liberty and learn more and later share information with others. This then makes various dogmas look silly and i think what is happening today with religion is nothing unexpected.
User avatar
dyn
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:50 UTC
Favorite map: q3dm8
Server: FFA
Website: https://vogonhq.com

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby SD » Wed Apr 17, 2013 19:34 UTC

Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet but the short answer is no. Morality exists even where religions don't. VAT asks a good question, what is morality? Is it subjective or objective? The debate on that one burns as brightly as it ever did even now.
The problem with those who say you need religion/God in order to get a moral compass is that it raises something called the Euthyphro Dilemma, which in a nutshell is this -

Does God command it because it's good?
Or is it good because a God commands it?

Back to the question though. Pretty sure humanity wouldn't have made it this far if it didn't have some sense of morality, even if it's just a basic sense of right and wrong. This is learned of course, not like babies have a clue about it. Morals are usually derived from what is collectively considered "good" or productive in a society. Like for instance eating your babies isn't very productive for the human race etc.
User avatar
SD
Former Admin
 
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:54 UTC
Location: Wales, UK
Favorite map: Q3TOURNEY3
Server: INSTAKILL

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby craij » Mon Apr 22, 2013 21:41 UTC

dyn wrote:I think religions are in a crisis...

Which is why all of the major religions are still seeing positive growth rates?

Morality is subjective. Religion has always had a very large hand in guiding the "moral compass." Wish I could live long enough to witness some major shift but I don't think its coming any time soon.
craij
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 17:41 UTC
Server: FFA

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby SD » Mon Apr 22, 2013 22:22 UTC

craij wrote:
dyn wrote:I think religions are in a crisis...

Which is why all of the major religions are still seeing positive growth rates?

Morality is subjective. Religion has always had a very large hand in guiding the "moral compass." Wish I could live long enough to witness some major shift but I don't think its coming any time soon.


Islam mostly. That's the fastest growing religion around. However, opposition is also growing, the fight back is getting more intense and more present online and "IRL" - the major fight back started with 9/11 really.

"The time for polite debate is over" - Richard Dawkins.
User avatar
SD
Former Admin
 
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:54 UTC
Location: Wales, UK
Favorite map: Q3TOURNEY3
Server: INSTAKILL

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby dyn » Tue Apr 23, 2013 14:39 UTC

Religion is losing its power and this also shows in lack of discipline people have, so-called "moral compass". Do we need religion to be more orderly - no, but it provided something for people to follow. Right now people have nothing and this shows in society. One example of this is bullying and gang-rapes, not just the act of doing it but sending photos around later making fun of a victim. This type of behavior is possible only when society is rotten. Of course there was crime under theocracy as well, and after all, many times gang-rapes are done by muslim immigrants as well, a lot of cases in Finland, Norway, Sweden, etc.

So what the fuck, what is wrong with this society when even muslims who should be most theocratic are doing this? I think Islam is over-rated. In reality they are full of division and obviously it lost its power on their society as well. At the same time predominantly secular societies also are pretty fucked up. So neither one or another are providing any answers. It seems this civilization is expiring, it needs to be replaced with something new and revolutionary. Sooner it rots away, the better.
User avatar
dyn
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:50 UTC
Favorite map: q3dm8
Server: FFA
Website: https://vogonhq.com

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby Fierfaks » Wed Jun 12, 2013 20:20 UTC

You children forgot about Orthodoxy. The religion which didn't send to crusades and didn't burn on fires. And the person who is really believing in god, won't harm people. And god in us one for all religions.
User avatar
Fierfaks
TM
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 14:22 UTC
Location: RUSSIA
Server: TDM

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby VAT » Thu Jun 13, 2013 17:11 UTC

Fierfaks wrote:You children forgot about......


sounds like abraham or moses....
but one thing is sure: we are no children!
User avatar
VAT
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 18:19 UTC
Server: FFA

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby Fierfaks » Thu Jun 13, 2013 20:15 UTC

I am not a preacher and is exact not Abraham and Moisey. I simply don't know English. :< And though the body isn't young, but in soul I always the young. :yes:
User avatar
Fierfaks
TM
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 14:22 UTC
Location: RUSSIA
Server: TDM

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby SD » Fri Jun 14, 2013 20:35 UTC

Fierfaks wrote:And the person who is really believing in god, won't harm people

Sorry dude, I know you're new and everything but this is...how can I be polite.....simply not true :)
Demonstrably, evidently, categorically - not true :)
User avatar
SD
Former Admin
 
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:54 UTC
Location: Wales, UK
Favorite map: Q3TOURNEY3
Server: INSTAKILL

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby Fierfaks » Sat Jun 15, 2013 07:21 UTC

SD wrote:
Fierfaks wrote:And the person who is really believing in god, won't harm people

Sorry dude, I know you're new and everything but this is...how can I be polite.....simply not true :)
Demonstrably, evidently, categorically - not true :)

I don't agree with you. :o
User avatar
Fierfaks
TM
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 14:22 UTC
Location: RUSSIA
Server: TDM

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby SD » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:24 UTC

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. You are stating that if a person believes in God that they won't harm people. This is false, and I can prove it's false. Very easily. Can you prove it's true?
User avatar
SD
Former Admin
 
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:54 UTC
Location: Wales, UK
Favorite map: Q3TOURNEY3
Server: INSTAKILL

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby NIko_bellic » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:46 UTC

I always thought that religion teaches treats people well and trust them, but sometimes the people by his actions, show that not all people can trust.
NIko_bellic
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 19:47 UTC

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby Fierfaks » Sat Jun 15, 2013 15:25 UTC

SD wrote:It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. You are stating that if a person believes in God that they won't harm people. This is false, and I can prove it's false. Very easily. Can you prove it's true?

Prove. And I will try to destroy your proof. :lol:
User avatar
Fierfaks
TM
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 14:22 UTC
Location: RUSSIA
Server: TDM

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby SD » Sat Jun 15, 2013 16:52 UTC

You wont be able to my good chap :)
What you're essentially saying is that anyone who believes in God (which one btw?) won't harm anyone - do you seriously want to make such an easily debunked argument? C'mon, try harder ;)
User avatar
SD
Former Admin
 
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 18:54 UTC
Location: Wales, UK
Favorite map: Q3TOURNEY3
Server: INSTAKILL

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby Fierfaks » Sat Jun 15, 2013 18:20 UTC

No. :) It is possible to continue dialogue about it very long. And to give a number of arguments for and a number of arguments against. ;)
User avatar
Fierfaks
TM
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 14:22 UTC
Location: RUSSIA
Server: TDM

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby dyn » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:09 UTC

Fierfaks wrote:You children forgot about Orthodoxy. The religion which didn't send to crusades and didn't burn on fires. And the person who is really believing in god, won't harm people. And god in us one for all religions.

I believe that was the kernel of ancient Egyptian Akhenaton's teachings, Moses was his disciple, also it is very possible he was Moses himself. After his revolutionary reforms many nobles and members of the old priest caste wanted to kill him. It is also basic message of the New Testament, that is, there is one God -- Vatican stops here and says they know Him and only they can save you -- which is very good for money-making and political power. However more progressive religions go further and tell people that there is one God and each individual can recognize this divine essence inside them and thus overcome their own bestial nature.

So, people should strive for something higher than themselves and this way they can overcome lower impulses, do good instead of bad & recognize this same divine potential in others. Or even if they don't, they still can use religion as a moral compass, obey its laws so society remains stable and orderly. People welcomed this after the Dark Ages where many regions experienced true anarchy and lawlessness, which was good for those who wanted to kill, but very bad for those who wanted to be in peace. That's why Christianity was able to spread, people got tired of all the violence and countless regional divisions and disputes. Then again some regions were already peaceful and their pagan beliefs required no human sacrifices or similar, those regions were subjugated in the name of one God, many were killed and old temples destroyed. Religion can be peaceful as long as it remains individual, but when it externalizes it will lead to violence, because not all people want to accept it. There are also other problems with monotheism, basically one is forced to disregard all other forces in Nature, which in effect makes people more spiritually ignorant & gives way to the religion of anti-religion later. :)
User avatar
dyn
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:50 UTC
Favorite map: q3dm8
Server: FFA
Website: https://vogonhq.com

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby dyn » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:14 UTC

SD wrote:You wont be able to my good chap :)
What you're essentially saying is that anyone who believes in God (which one btw?) won't harm anyone - do you seriously want to make such an easily debunked argument? C'mon, try harder ;)


This goes both ways, for instance millions killed in the name of one true God, be it in Europe or Latin America or elsewhere. Then again millions killed in the name of equality and social justice, Marxist economic theories, Freemasonic revolutions / collectivist communist ideas, and lately in the name of spreading democracy.
User avatar
dyn
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:50 UTC
Favorite map: q3dm8
Server: FFA
Website: https://vogonhq.com

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby Fierfaks » Sat Jun 29, 2013 13:23 UTC

dyn wrote:
SD wrote:You wont be able to my good chap :)
What you're essentially saying is that anyone who believes in God (which one btw?) won't harm anyone - do you seriously want to make such an easily debunked argument? C'mon, try harder ;)


This goes both ways, for instance millions killed in the name of one true God, be it in Europe or Latin America or elsewhere. Then again millions killed in the name of equality and social justice, Marxist economic theories, Freemasonic revolutions / collectivist communist ideas, and lately in the name of spreading democracy.
pseudodemocracy :(
User avatar
Fierfaks
TM
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 14:22 UTC
Location: RUSSIA
Server: TDM

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby dyn » Mon Jul 01, 2013 17:09 UTC

Fierfaks wrote:pseudodemocracy :(


Some think this "spreading of democracy" is similar to spreading of religion not long ago. It makes sense, since prerequisite for that is monotheistic worldview, us vs them, only one God to the exclusion of all others. So then converting unbelievers becomes a holy mission, just as it is today with democracy. You need to accept it, or else you belong in an "axis of evil", it even sounds similar to "in league with Satan".

Yes, this world needs more Satan. Black is white and white is black.
User avatar
dyn
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:50 UTC
Favorite map: q3dm8
Server: FFA
Website: https://vogonhq.com

Re: Do We Need Religion To Create A Moral Society?

Postby VAT » Tue Jul 02, 2013 20:49 UTC

dyn wrote:
Fierfaks wrote:pseudodemocracy :(


Some think this "spreading of democracy" is similar to spreading of religion not long ago. It makes sense, since prerequisite for that is monotheistic worldview, us vs them, only one God to the exclusion of all others. So then converting unbelievers becomes a holy mission, just as it is today with democracy. You need to accept it, or else you belong in an "axis of evil", it even sounds similar to "in league with Satan".

Yes, this world needs more Satan. Black is white and white is black.


and both admeasuring are nothing, just like our illusions......
User avatar
VAT
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 18:19 UTC
Server: FFA


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest